SPEAKER_01 0:07

Hello everyone and welcome back to Made for Christ. Alyssa here with Pascal.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

Hello, hello.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Hello. Another beautiful day in Tucson, Arizona. And we have a super fun guest today. Her name is Joy, and she and I share a very key identifier for us as pastor children, pastors' daughters. And so welcome, Joy.

SPEAKER_03 0:36

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

Welcome, welcome. Very good to meet you.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Yeah, so Joy just finished her last year of teaching at an elementary school as an art teacher. So how are you feeling with that chapter closing?

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Very emotional and tired.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Yeah, very tired, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

So my wife's also a teacher. She teaches second grade at a private Christian school. She absolutely loves it. But yeah, this time of the year is very stressful. Um, not only just closing the books, but emotionally. Yeah. Like she forms a strong bond with those students.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Yeah, say goodbye to them, yeah. So how long were you a teacher? Four years. Four and a half. Yeah. Because I my my first year, I was like, I started halfway through the year, but a full four years. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

And what's next on your journey?

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Um, so it's a longer story, but when I graduated, I got a Bachelor of Fine Arts with photo and video. And um, I graduated during COVID, so I was supposed to get like all the gallery shows, and I made a documentary. I was supposed to have like a documentary showing, um, and that was all canceled. I also made a documentary about child abuse, and um, it was a really dark six months editing that every day. Yeah. So then I was like, how can I work with kids in a non-depressing way where I'm crying every day? So that's how I came into teaching. But at this and then you're crying in a different way. Yeah, exactly. But also, I'm like, there's a part of me that's still really I've always wanted to be a documentary filmmaker or a photojournalist. So the goal is to go back to school, get my master's in journalism or something like that. Yeah. And see if I would enjoy that and love that because that's always been a pull for me. And I also just don't I love kids, but I don't think teaching's my gift. I don't think it's my calling. Um, I don't have the patience.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Was there anything about it that was particularly difficult for you?

SPEAKER_00 2:26

I mean, if so I first started as a classroom teacher and I felt like a single mom of 30, to be honest. That was the hardest year ever. And then I became the art teacher for the following three years, and I kind of feel like I was the fun aunt, but I think the what you're asked of as a teacher is just a lot with no pay. Yeah. So it's just a lot, and there's many moments where I was like, this is so much work without it being super, super fulfilling. And I would probably have a better relationship with all these children if I wasn't their teacher and having to tell them to be quiet all day.

SPEAKER_02 3:02

Yeah, this the state of Arizona is is horrible. I think this is like the second worst state for pay for teachers. Not only that, the the resources, all the things that is required of you.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

Oh, I use all like most of my own money. Like, not only do I not give much of my paycheck, I'm using it for being an art teacher.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

Supplies for the kids. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

So it's like, okay. Yeah, something's gotta give. Yeah. I'm not saving any money. And I'm also that I still want to do that stuff. Like, so I'm like, if I don't do it now and if I get too old or have kids, like I'm never gonna do it. So might as well do it now. And if I find out I hate it, then I know.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

So that's good. Yeah, awesome. Well, you wanna dive into your story a little bit? Yeah, you know, being a a PK and how that's helped define who you are today.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Okay, so I wouldn't say I'm a typical PK, like I feel like I've heard a lot of other PK stories and I don't um feel like I relate as much. Like I feel like they they call PKs like that. You live in like, what do they call it? Like a fishbowl. And I never felt like that as a kid. I think my older sister might have. You're the third four? I'm the second four. So okay, so there's there were four of us growing up, and then we adopted into the coal when she was already an adult, so there's five, but growing up, I was the second oldest. Um I was the kind of rebellious stinker kid as a kid. Second born daughter, yes, middle child. Um and so I think I'm trying to remember, like I just remember there was a lot of families at our church and a lot of people at my sister's age, a lot of people my my age and my younger siblings' age. Um, and I never felt like I was like, because I feel like a lot of pastors' kids say that like they were always looked at to be the example. And I never felt like that. I just felt like I was playing with my friends. Um, I'm trying to think, like, so I didn't ever feel like the fishbowl thing where you I felt like I had to perform and be perfect. And I also was a very bold kid. So like uh I I was like, so before my parents got counseling, my dad was more of a like an angry dad. And he parented in a very very authoritarian way before counseling. And so I was the kid, I was the only kid in the household that wasn't like the people pleaser. I was the one that would stand up to my dad's like a authoritative like parenting. Um so I think because of that, I was different from a lot of pastors' kids because I was like just very I was going to be myself and I also wasn't gonna be told what to do. Right. So, like, for example, like my uncle came to visit from Alabama and I remember my dad asked me to pray for dinner. And I was, and at the time I didn't believe in God, so I wasn't gonna pretend I was. Yeah. And so I was like, no. And he was like, then you don't get to eat, and I shoved the food at him. I was like, fine. Uh so that was like my siblings would have never done that. I would I would got spanked like every day. Post counseling, things definitely changed. I wasn't as rebellious because I felt more loved and secure with my parents' care for me. Right. But um I feel like I got off top off topic.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

But um well, one of the things you said early on was you had to be perfect. So was that pressure that your parents were putting on you?

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Was that like I would say I didn't feel that, like most pastor kids didn't know.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

Oh, you didn't feel that way. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

Yeah. Like I I knew my parents were idiots, so I knew God was real. And I knew I was like, okay, everyone around me believes in God, so I don't think they're all stupid, but I don't think God is a good God. And so I was like, I'm not gonna pray to this God that allows pain and allows awfulness. Like, I don't, I so I knew God was real growing up, but I did not believe he was a good God, and so therefore I was like, I'm not praying to this person, I don't think is good. And so I think my siblings felt the pressure to be perfect, and so they would pretend they all of them kind of like pretended where it would like early on when they didn't have a like they all do have a relationship with Jesus now, but when they were kids, they didn't, and I wasn't going to pretend because I was like, I don't think this man, this god is good, so I don't I'm not gonna pretend.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

Yeah, did you have those, excuse me, did you have those conversations with your siblings when you were younger? Or is it kind of just going with the flow and they were like, Joy, stop?

SPEAKER_00 7:35

No, they were all be like, stop, stop, and they were like, You're gonna get spanked, and I'll be like, fine. I I was kind of a free kid because I would I literally remember if we were both me and my sibling were both being spanked at the time, same time, I'd be like, Faith, you better suck up those tears, you better not show any weakness. We are laughing in his face the second he spanks us, show no weakness.

SPEAKER_02 7:55

I was like kind of a psychic wow, rebel, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

I remember when I was so this is even probably before my dad became a believer, but I remember too like weighing out the consequences like is it worth getting spanked? And I was every time, every time it was worth getting spanked. Yeah. And it there was like no, I just like disassociated, you know? Yeah. Like, okay, this is gonna be fun, and I'm gonna deal with the consequences. I'm like, the pain will last a moment. Yep, exactly. Literally, my six-year-old brain would say the pain is momentary, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

So I I genuinely think I was spanked like every day as a kid because I didn't care. Yeah, yeah. Psycho.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

Can I ask why you thought he was not a good God?

SPEAKER_00 8:43

I was a very, very sensitive, emotional child. And I think I really, for whatever reason, I just like really saw a lot of the darkness in the world and early on as a kid. And I do think that's a gift God gave me in some ways. It's been painful in my life, but I do think that's something like God gave me like an awareness of pain and other other people's pain. Another note, when my parents would have home church, I would like sit in the hall and ear eavesdrop. And so I would hear a lot of stuff as a kid I shouldn't have here. Um, and so I was like, I don't think this God is good if he there's so much pain in this world. And I also think before my parents got counseling, I didn't really feel loved by my parents, and so I was like, why would God let me experience so much pain, feeling so unloved? And I was like, So, and you know how people say, like, you put your dad on God. I didn't feel really feel fully loved by my dad when he was such an authoritative, like angry parent. And so I think I saw God as that. I was like, God doesn't love me, and so he's not good, like so, and I also saw other people have relationships with him, like personal relationships, and I was like, Well, God hasn't pursued me, so he clearly doesn't care about me.

SPEAKER_02 9:59

Oh wow, yeah. At what point did that change for you?

SPEAKER_00 10:05

So it all changed, so okay, so for a lot of my childhood, I was like, screw you, God, and then there came a point I would say middle schoolish, where I really wanted him to want me, where I saw all the personal relationships in my church of people like talking about how God spoke to them and uh the Holy Spirit moved them and all this stuff, and I was like, why doesn't God want that with me? And so I instead of like being like screw you, I became like, why not me? Why? Like, is am I so screwed up that I don't deserve your love? Am I too far gone? Or are you just not good? And so I wrestled a lot with that in middle school, and so I was just I was really angry a lot because I couldn't understand, like I finally came to terms with me wanting him to want me instead of shoving it down. So that was a painful time, and then I remember summer camp fresh before freshman year of high school. Um, that was my first time at summer camp with my youth group. Um, and I remember everyone was uh like it was like a night worship, I believe. Everyone was singing that song, I surrender, like distinctly remember it. And everyone like had their hands up. And I've all as a kid, I was always like fake. Yeah. I was like always judging people that would like do this. I'm like, whatever. Um, which is rude. But I was like, that's so fake. And then I remember thinking, like, honestly, just like yelling at God in my head. I was like, Why do you not want me? Like, why do I not matter to you? Am I not too far gone that I've sinned so much that I'm not worthy ever of your love? Like, I just was like shouting at him, sitting down while everyone else was standing, just really angry, honestly throwing a temper tantrum at God almost, and like a loud, thundering, gentle voice said, I love you, Joy. And I like that like changed everything. I like wept because like not only I have a lot of shame with my name at the time at least. That the fact that he won during my temper tantrum, like said, I love you, Joy. And then he said my name. Yeah, that's definitely like that's when I became a follower, Jesus, because that changed everything for me.

SPEAKER_02 12:18

He knew you, yeah, and he loved you, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

And so was it an audible voice that was an audible voice, and I haven't heard anything like that since, but it was a gentle but also thundering, yeah. And I like fell to the ground. I that changed everything for me. And you know, like looking back, I'm like, did I hear him? But I'm very confident that I know that was Jesus or I know that was God that like spoke to me, called me by name when I had so much shame for my name. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

That's I think it's so important to to like just revisit and note like even though your parents uh were heads of this church, you still were like, I'm not taking this from you. Like I that's that's pretty intelligent, you know, for like for a six-year-old or even like a 14-year-old, that's like extreme intelligence to sit there and have these wrestle conversations and um and then to be able to share it because I think that most uh people unless you go through something traumatic like a drug addiction or or I don't know, something that like the world would call traumatic, um, but like obviously traumatic, but you don't realize you that there you realize where the rock bottom is, right? Like you lose everything because of this addiction, or you lose everything because of a a cancer diagnosis or something. But this was your rock bottom, you know. You you surrendered, you you put up a a fight for your entire life, and your rock bottom was sitting here saying to yourself, like and saying to God, Lord, why don't you love me? Yeah, that's powerful, that's so powerful, and not really spoken about hardly at all, especially in Christian circles. Yeah. Um, you know, when you grow up a believer, you grow up, I guess you grow up in a church, it's just expected, and no one really has conversations with kids. Like I like the last podcast, I got a dollar for saying that I believed in God and got baptized, you know, like it was total bribery. Yeah. But but I took it because the dollar back then was worth a lot more than it is now. But it took me decades to to work that out too and and come into my own. Yeah. Um, so so after that that high school experience at church camp, which I went to church camp every year from when I was 12 years old until even after college, I was like a a a leader.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

Oh, you're like a camp leader, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Yeah, yeah. And but even then, I was a good Christian for that week, you know, and that was that was it. And then I would come back and do my own rebellion lifestyle. Um, so after that church camp for you, what did life look like?

SPEAKER_00 15:27

I mean, obviously, like I still had like similar same sin struggles, and um I think what really changed is I mean it changed a lot because I didn't have to move through the world with so much anger. Okay, because I knew like God loved me. Obviously, that became hard to accept, and grace is still hard for me to accept at times. I think I lived with so much shame my whole life, so it didn't just go away like that. Yeah, but definitely did change a lot. Um I think it just became a desire to want a relationship with him, which was something that I just started pursuing on my own because I almost all I honestly at first didn't want to like even tell my parents, yeah. But um yeah, I mean I just became more involved in like wanting to serve and like wanting to have a relationship with him, and then like I became super part of like my high school's fellowship of Christian students, is that what it is? FCS, yeah. Um and then just became more involved in home church and I think yeah, I just wanted I mean, because like I wasn't doing a lot of those things because I was like I'm not gonna do something if it's like yeah genuine, right? But obviously I still struggle with similar things and I had to walk through a lot in counseling, and so like when my first Potter's wheel retreat was when I was about to start, no, sorry, it was my second year of college, right before my second year of college, and that changed a whole bunch too. So there's like pivotal moments in my life I can remember, but um yeah, I feel like that didn't really answer your question, but no, that was yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

So, so Potter's Wheel. Um, if you want to put a quick plug for Potter's Wheel and like tell it, tell us and the listeners what Potter's Wheel is and how it how it impacted your family.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

Yeah. So the creators of Potter's Wheel are Patty and John Siepman, and they got taught by like Larry Crab. Um, I think Dan Allen also was a professor of theirs at one point. Potter's Wheel is basically you're um in a group and you're walking through your story of like where I feel like you probably would be better explaining it, but basically you like unpack where God was, um, like super traumatic moments in your childhood that shaped you and affect how you make decisions today. And um it's a way of like one having grace for yourself, but also a form of repentance because the a lot of this your story is how your sin patterns developed. And when you understand why sin patterns started, you're able to then lay them down as it like when you are acknowledging why you're doing what you're doing. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 18:13

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So so would you would say that it's so you said group, so it's not like individual counseling. Yeah. Um, and you're you're walking through your story, yeah, just everything that you can.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

And you're hearing other people's stories, which I'll think also think is so impactful because their story like stirs things in you, and you're like, oh my gosh, that reminds me of this. And you there were moments that I in my first Potter's retreat that I didn't even realize I remembered. Yeah. They were very traumatic moments that didn't come to mind until I was sitting in that room. Yeah. And I had um, I have a lot of I think issues with men at times, but when I was in Potter's Retreat, I had a young man crying for me over so about a story I didn't think was a big deal. And that genuinely like was very powerful for me to have a man cry for me. So all around, like I think the groups I think some people are very uncomfortable with that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

But I think it's by design, it's it's done on purpose. You're you're sharing each other's burdens, which is biblical, you're pouring your hearts out, and then you're healing and reconciling. Yeah. So when I did the the retreat and you were part of it, there were their same experience. There were things that to me was just part of my life. But when I would say something and you're like, what? That's crazy. Yeah. And I'm like, because you don't, it's your normal. It's my normal. Yeah. But but normal's not healthy, right? You know, so um, so yeah, the so the Potter's Wheel, you participated, but how did it not just personally, but how did it affect your entire family? So yeah, I forgot you said that.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Okay. So my mom and dad, they started going through it when I was a kid, and honestly, that was like a huge shift in our family. Like my dad wasn't parenting the same way. My dad started apologizing for the first time in my entire like, and that was very powerful to have your dad come and apologize for when he like gets really angry. Like that was so changed, truly. Like, I talk about it. I literally was talking about it to a coworker because I was I apologized to a student the other day for like losing my cool. Um, and I'm like, my parents modeled that for me, and that was so powerful for them to come to me and be like, hey, I should not have treated you like that. Um, no one should ever treat you like that. Like, that was very powerful. I don't think I would have a relationship with my parents if they had not gone through Potter's Wheel. Wow. Genuinely, because they both of them changed so much for the better. Um, they both are walking into their own stories, walking into their own sin patterns, and like repenting of that. And obviously it's a slow process, but yeah, they became different people. Um, which is also like, I think a lot of pastors' kids see their dad as a hypocrite at times because their dad doesn't own up to the own their own horrible parenting. And so the fact that my dad would apologize to me, like I was able to see my dad as like a great leader, like that he owned up to his junk. But um, so that my whole our whole family just shifted because of Potter's Wheel.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

So when your parents went through Potter's Wheel and there was this shift, where were you at in your journey of your relationship with? I was so I was still that really angry kid.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Okay. Because this is pre-um church camp. Yes. Okay. This is for church camp. Okay. So I I w started wanting God to love me because I think also my parents' shift and like me not being so like screw you guys, you know, kind of right. Yeah. So I th I I don't remember the age, but it was a slower shift. But it also my dad started writing letters of apology as well. Because there were big moments that I think he had to reconcile with where he like which he arises. Because of Potter's wheel. And so he like apologized for these eruptions of anger. And then also slowly in the moment he would come and apologize for certain things.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

So like so it's twofold. It wasn't just capturing the moment, but also reconciling huge moments. Healing the past. Yeah. Yep. So he's going through this process. You're still confused, angry, seeing a change in your parents that you didn't think would ever happen. And then you're at this moment of desperation, and you're like, if you could do it for them, why can't you do it for me? Definitely. So then after, so we covered Potter's wheel. Um, and so now after you're you're working towards being in the more involved in the church and in home church and stuff like that. So how would you define your relationship with Jesus now?

SPEAKER_00 23:01

I would say, I mean, it's an ongoing, I think, process of like um laying down your needs and like I would say there was a period of time where there was some there was like an event in our church where I okay, okay, let me just start okay. Growing up also as a pastor's kid, when you have a lot of people walk away from girl church, it's really, really painful. So there was a period of my time where it became so much of people like not being in my life anymore where I was like, I don't want to be close to anyone. Yeah, absolutely. And I became really just like depressed. I stopped going to home church during that time, and that was maybe like three years ago. And I'm now much better. Like I have a community of a home church that I'm loyal to that points me to Jesus. But there was a time where like I really, really struggled to like want to be close to anyone just because it's so painful when you're so close to people. And as a pastor's kid, I've just had so many friends walk away from the church. Yeah. Walk away from Jesus, but also just walk away from the church. And it's profoundly painful that there have been times where I'm like, do I want to be close to anyone? Sometimes the answer is no.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Yeah, absolutely. And sometimes it's like, what did I do wrong? Like we, there's like a sense of responsibility for the church. And also like it's like one of those things like I can be mad at my dad, but you can't be mad at my dad. Yeah, I can talk about my dad, but you can't talk about my dad. You definitely, yeah, like and and you and I, I'm the oldest of two, but I feel like you and I have a lot of um similar personality traits where even if our dads are wrong, we will defend to the death. Yeah, like uh, and we would just go to battle. I remember so when my I didn't I wasn't born into being a pastor's kid, so I definitely um it was a culture shock when that happened. Yeah, but I remember being like 15, 16 years old and like going toe-to-toe with older men and being like and for whatever reason they feel comfortable to talk to you about it. Yeah, you are a snake and you are like just completely calling people out. And uh I had zero self-control because my prefrontal cortex was not fully developed, but but yeah, you know, and and and then to see your your dad's pain and hurt like as a daughter, there's like a sense of responsibility for that, yeah. Yeah. So so now, so even with your relationship with Jesus, you still didn't trust people. Yeah. And I think that that's such a fair um thing to say. So, how did you work through that? Or how are you still working through that?

SPEAKER_00 25:57

Definitely counseling, yeah. It's like definitely ongoing. Um for a while I was getting from the legend herself, Patty Seepin, who created Pot as well, I was getting counseling from her. Um, and our sessions would be five hours. Oh my gosh, that sounds incredible. And she's because she just wouldn't stop it. And I because it'd be always on Saturdays, and I would get there at 10, and we would just like go and go. And I'm like, oh my gosh. So it was like crying for five hours, like non-stop crying. Yeah, exhausted. Yeah, but I've also had some sad experiences with counselors too, of like I can't walk into my story if I feel like my parents are being attacked, sadly. No, not sadly, like that that makes complete sense. So if like a counselor's not being super gentle about it, I immediately can't walk into my story. Yeah. Because I do have that where it's like, I think maybe maybe every kid has it, or also just especially as pastors kids, but I'm like, don't talk that bad about my dad. Yeah. Like I can talk bad about my dad, but you can't talk about my dad.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Exactly. Are you like siblings? Like, it's just yeah, I think it's human nature, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Wait, what was the question? I'm so sorry. I don't know. Did I ask a question? Pascal, I'm so sorry. I'm totally monopolizing everything.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

If I can jump in on this, and it'll be at a different point in the conversation.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:15

But um, when you said that God spoke to you, that really got to me. And the reason that really got to me was I had a very similar experience.

SPEAKER_03 27:24

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

When I was searching for answers, I looked everywhere. Like I looked in all different religions, looking for any God that I thought was real. And I heard the one true God speak to me in a moment of of crisis. And I knew it was him. And the reason I knew it was him is it it yes, it was an audible voice, but it was a voice I heard to my very soul. Yeah, it like spoke to me in a way that went beyond my hearing.

SPEAKER_03 28:03

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:04

Yeah, and it affected my emotion like my spirit. It spoke directly to my spirit, and that was something I had never experienced before.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

Yeah. So would you say that that was yeah, and everything, everything feels yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

And then over the next few days, that as I was reliving that moment over and over again in my mind, I saw little signs of how true that was. Like he's he started speaking to me in other ways, not just audible voice, but in scripture verses, yeah, and people that I talked to in a pastor that shared with me the gospel message, you know, like everything I experienced for that next week all spoke to that moment of him clearly pursuing you. Exactly. Wow. So did you feel pursued in that moment? Yeah. What other ways did he convince you that he loved you?

SPEAKER_00 29:09

I mean, I also think during that time, like my I felt very pursued by my youth pastor. Um I mean, I think youth uh camp is such a powerful thing in when you go back to normal life, but I still felt like God was pursuing me, and like I think just a huge shift in me also impacted my entire family because I went from being the really angry sister to like not being as much that way. So I think that also I think sometimes also my siblings were like, what? Because I was the very I have a lot of sadness for my childhood self, but did your siblings notice the change in you? I hope so. I mean, I haven't asked them, but I was definitely uh not a nice sister for a lot of my life. And I look back with a lot of regret, but I definitely think all the really I mean all my sisters we became best friends like when I was in high school. So I think before that we weren't really friends, yeah. So yeah, I think a lot changed when God clearly spoke like was pursuing all of us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

Pursued all of you. Okay. So you said when you were younger, you felt like your siblings were faking it.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

I don't know. I think my older sister would definitely say, like, acknowledge that she was because she was like, dad was my dad was even harder. Um he was hard on all of us differently. But he since she was the firstborn, she got a lot of the horrible parenting. And so I think she was just forced to be the like she was like, it's not worth it to like question. Yeah. And so she would just be like, fine, that kind of thing, even though she didn't believe it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

And yeah, and it's just like not outright saying either you don't believe or you don't understand. Because I mean, as kids, I don't know that we can be expected to understand something so profound.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

And she would plead with me and just be like, just just agree. I was like, no.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

I admire that about you.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

You were you were real, absolutely super authentic.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

Yep, yep. But you two had some very different experiences because you uh your dad went through that transformation where he became a Christian at how old were you?

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Yeah, so I think I was about seven. I think I was seven when he got saved, and then like eight or nine when we started to like um when he started to like walk with Christ or we started going to church and something. Actually, so Joy's family, well Joy's parents moved here um in 1997.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

Um, from Alabama to plant a church. And when they planted the church, they kind of joined forces with these two other churches. And I, my family was attending one of the the three churches that all came together. So the church we go to is called Oasis at Reader Ranch, but there was Oasis Um Bear Canyon and Oasis Church in the desert. So we went to my family went to church in the desert. So the three uh churches were like connected for a little over a year, I think. And so that's how the Gaines like came into our lives. And that's 100% why when Christian and I moved out to Reader Ranch, like that's why we started going to church there because there was that um familial uh connection. So like that's how we got there again. But um I don't even know if you were born yet. I think Grace maybe I was born 98. Okay. Um, so much younger, yeah, younger than than uh Jessica and I. But um, so yeah, so I I saw a transformation, but what my um my heartache was was that everything came before me, you know. So growing up it was drugs and alcohol. And then when I was in elementary school, middle school, it was like other kids, you know, got the the priority. Um, and then with the church, of course, the congregates get the the priority. And so that was uh my dad of you know, the others like some anger issues and stuff like that. But but for me, I always felt like I came second, right? And uh or third or fourth. And so that's where my my heartache came from. Um, and then also my dad never went to seminary, he didn't, he wasn't taught how to run a church. Um, so he was like figuring it out as he went along. And so there were certain decisions that were made that included, and my sister was the rebel rebellion one. Like she's like, I'm not going to church, I'm not doing this. And I'm like, I'm there because that I had the pressure, but my parents didn't put the pressure on me. Like I put the pressure on myself to be like, I have to be the perfect daughter because I'm a reflection of my father and my mother and stuff like that. So I put that pressure on myself and I uh would go to church, but um, but there's certain things that happened that it was normal, but like looking back on it and sharing with other people, it's like, whoa, that was traumatic. Like how that's crazy. Yeah. Um, but but I mean, like, we definitely have different stories because the pressure I put on myself, you didn't feel the need to, or maybe because your sister or your siblings did that, you're like, well, that you know, that is already taken care of. So I'm gonna be the the representative for for my family, for my my siblings. Yeah um, but I mean, I was very mean to my sister too, and that rooted when my in my dad's addiction. Like I blamed her and my mom and and was mean to her, and not until counseling did I realize that my anger was misplaced. Yeah um, and and again, even still to this day, like if something someone comes up against my dad and I'm around, I'm like, uh-uh. I'm the wrong person to be saying this to. But um, but what is very similar with us is the way that we felt the Lord pursue us. And for me, it was working at Gospel Rescue Mission that rescued my relationship with the Lord, um, similar to how that church camp rescued your relationship with the Lord, and then still being a human and going through human emotions and sadness and fear and people constantly letting you down. Like at church one time there was a question Um, does Jesus' humanity attract you to him or like make you not um or repel? Yeah, or yeah, or attract or repel. And so, of course, so in our church, we're like we talk about um this question that's gonna lead into the sermon and stuff. So everyone's like, Oh, it attracts me to him. I love that Jesus is a human, I love this. And at that point, I was really mad at some humans in my life, and I was like, it totally repels me because I don't want Jesus to be human, I want him to just be God and be above everything else because he's like, I'm human. I went through all this and um I'm perfect, haha, you can't be, but you know, and so like that was my my posture in that moment. Yeah, but then like you know, thinking back on it, like he did it because I can't, not to be like, haha. Right. But but yeah, humans suck. Yeah, they suck.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 37:01

I don't want to end on that note.

SPEAKER_01 37:03

No, why not? I feel like this is a very h-uplifting note. Humans suck, Jesus rocks.

SPEAKER_02 37:11

So I have a friend of mine, and and I'm sure that you've seen this a lot. Um, he was a pastor's kid and um great guy, love him to death. He shared with me that um because he grew up in the church and he witnessed um the failings of man, he started to believe less and less as he became an adult. You know, he looked to his father, who was the pastor of the church, and saw his failings you know, behind closed doors.

SPEAKER_03 37:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 37:47

And he can never reconcile that.

SPEAKER_03 37:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:52

And it wasn't that he blamed God, it's just that he didn't know how taking on that label of a Christian made someone a better person, and because he couldn't reconcile how that made a person good or not, he decided it wasn't for him.

SPEAKER_00 38:14

Like he saw the feelings of his dad and was like, Well, if you're a Christian and you're not getting better, then how is this even a good thing kind of thing?

SPEAKER_02 38:22

Exactly. Okay, yeah. So when he told me that it it broke my heart.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

I I didn't have a good answer for him. I don't know that I even to this day have have a good answer for him, other than now I clearly see that you know he died for us because we're all sinners. We we all miss the mark, right? And and the gospel message is such a simple message. Wherever we're at, we can understand it. He died to reconcile our sins. And we can grow up in the church and believe in that. But having God form a relationship with us personally takes that meaning and brings it to an entirely different level. It it's not the knowledge, it's the relationship. It's a relationship that changed you. It's him, it's knowing that he loved you personally that made all the difference.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Right, the feeling of being pursued, for sure. Yeah, you're totally right.

SPEAKER_02 39:29

Just like he pursued you, yeah, yeah, just like he pursued me, yeah, just like he pursued our cameraman back there, that no one else can see. And and that's the thought I would love to leave it on is our our knowledge doesn't matter, right? Our heart for God. We have to be open to Jesus Christ not only dying for our sins, but he did so so that he could come inside of us, so that he could come be a part of our lives and walk alongside us as the groom.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

Yeah. Yeah. Right. I also love to add another story real quick. Like with the shame with my name. I remember in college I was working in a summer camp and I was reading through John, and it's also one of the biggest moments I felt God's speaking to me is I was reading through John, and I was had my NIV study Bible out, and I was reading the part where Jesus is renaming Peter. Oh, yeah. He's saying, I'm named Eus. And in the Bible study note was like, God named him not for who he was. It was not he named him not for who he was, but who he became in Christ. Yeah. I really felt like God was like, I didn't name you Joy because of who you were, Joy. Like I named you for who you would become in me.

SPEAKER_03 40:45

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

And I now love my name. Yeah. Like he just there's so many stories from my childhood that he's restored.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

Amen. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that's a perfect way to end is just how the Lord meets us where we're at and pursues us and continues to pursue us, and is always there when we stray away and we can come right back to him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

And we can find our joy in him.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_02 41:19

So thank you, Joy, for coming on to our little podcast and sharing your story with us. We greatly appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 41:26

Thank you. I'm so happy to have been able to talk to you more.

SPEAKER_02 41:30

Yeah, thank you.